Blog

Why atheism is self-defeating.

Posted by:

Why atheism is self-defeating.

Whoever it was that first said, “The hardest part of my job is getting other people to do my job for me” apparently didn’t have the job of refuting naturalism, which is the belief (upon which atheism is based) that the natural world is self-existent, and therefore does not require an intelligent cause (God).  This is because naturalism is a self-defeating belief system.  By creating this self-defeating belief system, naturalists have left little work for the theist to do, other than to point out this self-defeating nature.

The easiest way for one to see that naturalism is self-defeating is to realize that, under naturalism, we have no reason to believe that ANY of our beliefs are true…let alone a belief in naturalism.  In fact, under the naturalist belief system, we have no reason to think that we even have the ability to reason accurately.

David Wood writes in his essay The Explanatory Emptiness of Naturalism (as it appears in True Reason: Christian Responses to the Challenge of Atheism):

“According to naturalists, our ability to reason is the product of natural selection acting on random mutation. Natural selection, of course, favors traits that help organisms survive and reproduce. So if human reasoning evolved naturally, it’s because it helped human beings survive and reproduce. Does this give us any basis for trusting our reasoning ability when it comes to questions of cosmology, or quantum mechanics, or neuroscience? Not at all. At best, our cognitive faculties would be reliable when it comes to finding berries, or using a spear against an enemy, or doing something to attract a mate. Interestingly, Darwin himself noticed this problem. He once admitted:

‘[W]ith me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would anyone trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?’

In other words, our reasoning ability serves the same evolutionary purpose as the traits of other animals (e.g., the claws of a lion, the song of a canary, or the colorful buttocks of a baboon). We wouldn’t trust the traits of animals to lead us to the truth, because they weren’t developed for that purpose. Why, then, would we trust our own convictions, which are the result of the same evolutionary process? There’s no way around this problem for naturalists, for in order to escape the Problem of Reason, they would need to construct an argument. But this argument would presuppose the reliability of human reason, which is precisely the issue under investigation. Hence, if we take Naturalism seriously, we cannot take our reasoning ability seriously, and science falls apart.”

The renowned philosopher of neuroscience Patricia Churchland, despite being a staunch naturalist, admits to this problem with naturalism in her article Epistemology in the Age of Neuroscience:

“The principal chore of nervous systems is to get the body parts where they should be in order that the organism may survive. . . . Improvements in sensorimotor control confer an evolutionary advantage: a fancier style of representing [the world] is advantageous so long as it . . . enhances the organism’s chances for survival. Truth, whatever that is, definitely takes the hindmost.”

Prominent atheist philosopher Thomas Nagel admits to the same in his book Mind and Cosmos, and devotes much of the rest of the book trying to wriggle free from theism.  He writes:

“Evolutionary naturalism implies that we shouldn’t take any of our convictions seriously, including the scientific world picture on which evolutionary naturalism itself depends.”

Naturalism, simply put, leaves us no reason whatsoever to think that any of our beliefs are reliable…such as a belief in naturalism.  Please recall that naturalism insists that the evolutionary mechanism of natural selection is mindless and random.  Also recall that natural selection selects for survivability, not for truth.  And, if one stops to think, there is no reason to think that certain false beliefs could not provide just as much survival value as a corresponding true belief.  For example, the belief that eating a particular plant should be avoided because doing so would cause one to turn into a werewolf provides just as much survival value as the belief that eating that plant should be avoided because doing so puts poison into one’s body.

Philosopher Alvin Plantinga sums up this point in his book Where the Conflict Really Lies: Science, Religion, and Naturalism:

“…neurology causes adaptive behavior and also causes or determines belief content [according to naturalism]: but there is no reason to suppose that the belief content thus determined is true. All that’s required for survival and fitness is that the neurology cause adaptive behavior; this neurology also determines belief content, but whether or not that content is true makes no difference to fitness. Certain NP [neuro-physiological] properties are selected for, because they contribute to fitness. These NP properties also cause or determine belief content; they associate a content or proposition with each belief. The NP properties are selected, however, not because they cause the content they do, but because they cause adaptive behavior. If the content, the proposition determined by the neurology (the NP properties of the belief) is true, fine. But if it is false, that’s no problem as far as fitness goes.”

Naturalism leaves us no reason to think that we can rely on our reason.  By dismissing God, naturalists have stripped away any reason to think that human reason can lead to truth.  We should therefore dismiss naturalism as having no more value than the empty “convictions of a monkey’s mind” (as Charles Darwin put it).

What reason, then, does the theist provide for believing that human reason can lead to truth?  Stanley Jaki, a leading philosopher and historian of science (and a physicist), provides perhaps the best articulated answer to this question.  This article, titled The Origin of Science describes how Christian theism anchors man’s rationality in God’s rationality and how Christianity was responsible for the rise of science.  Below is an excerpt:

In Christ and Science (p. 23), Jaki gives four reasons for modern science’s unique birth in Christian Western Europe:

  1. “Once more the Christian belief in the Creator allowed a break-through in thinking about nature. Only a truly transcendental Creator could be thought of as being powerful enough to create a nature with autonomous laws without his power over nature being thereby diminished. Once the basic among those laws were formulated science could develop on its own terms.”
  2. “The Christian idea of creation made still another crucially important contribution to the future of science. It consisted in putting all material beings on the same level as being mere creatures. Unlike in the pagan Greek cosmos, there could be no divine bodies in the Christian cosmos. All bodies, heavenly and terrestrial, were now on the same footing, on the same level. This made it eventually possible to assume that the motion of the moon and the fall of a body on earth could be governed by the same law of gravitation. The assumption would have been a sacrilege in the eyes of anyone in the Greek pantheistic tradition, or in any similar tradition in any of the ancient cultures.”
  3. “Finally, man figured in the Christian dogma of creation as a being specially created in the image of God. This image consisted both in man’s rationality as somehow sharing in God’s own rationality and in man’s condition as an ethical being with eternal responsibility for his actions. Man’s reflection on his own rationality had therefore to give him confidence that his created mind could fathom the rationality of the created realm.”
  4. “At the same time, the very createdness could caution man to guard against the ever-present temptation to dictate to nature what it ought to be. The eventual rise of the experimental method owes much to that Christian matrix.”

Atheists insist that naturalism is the worldview most compatible with science and that theism is unscientific.  And this viewpoint certainly gets plenty of play in the media, in academia, and in popular thought.  But, if naturalism does not provide us with any reason to trust our reason, why should we accept any naturalist reasoning?  And if Christian theism was responsible for the rise of science, why does naturalism so often get the credit for being the more scientific worldview?  Perhaps Vladimir Lenin was onto something when he said, “A lie told often enough becomes the truth.”



List Price: $27.95 USD
New From: $21.07 In Stock
Used from: $15.51 In Stock

43

About the Author:

A couple of years ago, I began exploring the logical basis for God’s existence and the best responses to common objections people have to the Christian faith. It quickly became apparent to me that there is much valuable information on these subjects that does not reach mass circulation.

Discussion

  1. Bob Seidensticker  July 9, 2012

    Natural selection is most certainly NOT “mindless and random” (you may be thinking about mutation).

    I respond to Plantinga’s Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism (which I believe is the same as your argument) in detail at the link below. In short, natural selection does a pretty good job of matching our beliefs with reality. If they weren’t well-matched, those genes would have been selected against.

    http://crossexaminedblog.com/2011/12/07/plantingas-nutty-evolutionary-argument-against-naturalism/

    (reply)
    • Scott Youngren  July 9, 2012

      Bob:

      I have reviewed your response to Plantinga’s argument, and I am going to be very frank. Please do not take personal offense, but in this situation frankness is needed:

      Your reply to Plantinga’s argument is an absolutely textbook example of responding to a straw-man caricature of an argument, rather than the actual argument that was presented. For example, your chart claims that Plantinga is suggesting that “I’m hungry” leads to the maladaptive neuro-physiological [NP] response of “get to fresh air.” Your chart also claims that Plantinga is suggesting, for example, that “I’m sleepy” leads to the maladaptive neuro-physiological response of “eat palatable food.”

      The problem is that there is nothing in Plantinga’s argument that suggests that physiological needs lead to maladaptive neuro-physiological responses. This is something that you have injected into Plantinga’s argument so as to (perhaps deliberately) mischaracterize his argument. If Plantinga actually suggested this, then you should be able to cite him as doing so. But guess what…you won’t, because you can’t, because he never made such an argument. I challenge you to prove me wrong.

      Your reply to Plantinga’s argument first creates a straw-man caricature of his argument and then proceeds to attack that straw man rather than his actual argument. I strongly suspect that you did not read his actual argument. Below is a copy and paste of some of his ACTUAL ARGUMENT that you need to respond to:

      “Natural selection selects for adaptive NP [neuro-physiological] properties; those NP properties determine content; but natural selection just has to take pot-luck with respect to the propositions or content determined by those adaptive NP properties. It does not get to influence or modify the function from NP properties to content properties: that’s just a matter of logic or causal law, and natural selection can’t modify either. Indeed, the content generated by the NP properties of this structure, on this occasion, need have nothing to do with that predator, or with anything else in the environment. True: the structure is correlated with the presence of a predator and indicates that presence; but indication is not belief. Indication is one thing; belief content is something else altogether, and we know of no reason (given materialism) why the one should follow the other. We know of no reason why the content of a belief should match what that belief (together, perhaps, with other structures) indicates. Content simply arises upon the appearance of neural structures of sufficient complexity; there is no reason why that content need be related to what the structures indicates, if anything. Indeed, the proposition constituting that content need not be so much as about that predator; it certainly need not be true.”

      Please first note the first sentence in the above citation from Plantinga’s argument: “Natural selection selects for adaptive NP [neuro-physiological] properties.” [italics added by me]

      Now Bob, please tell us what it is in Platinga’s above presented ACTUAL ARGUMENT that suggests that physiological needs will lead to maladaptive neuro-physiological responses, such as “I’m sleepy” leading to the maladaptive neuro-physiological (NP) response of “eat palatable food” (etc). One of the key points in Plantinga’s above argument that you need to respond to is: “Indication is one thing; belief content is something else altogether, and we know of no reason (given materialism) why the one should follow the other.” All that natural selection is concerned with is that the NP response meet the NP need. It is not concerned with whether the belief leading to that NP response is true or not. A false belief leading to an adaptive NP response is just as good as a true belief leading to an adaptive NP response.

      Bob, with all due respect, once again, you need to respond to Plantinga’s ACTUAL ARGUMENT rather than a straw-man mischaracterization of it. You call his argument “nutty,” but the only thing here that is “nutty” is the extent of your mischaracterizations of his argument.

      (reply)
      • Bob Seidensticker  July 10, 2012

        “The problem is that there is nothing in Plantinga’s argument that suggests that physiological needs lead to maladaptive neuro-physiological responses.”

        Then I must completely misunderstand the argument.

        As I stated in the post, Plantinga (apparently) is giving the example that our hominid Paul has, by dumb luck, a survival-promoting response to seeing a tiger. A response in accord with reality would be “Tigers are dangerous, and my proper response is to run away,” but he (again, just by luck) responds instead: “Tigers are cuddly and huggable, and my proper response is to run away.”

        Have I got it right?

        “Now please tell us what it is in Platinga’s above presented ACTUAL ARGUMENT that suggests that physiological needs will lead to maladaptive neuro-physiological responses, such as “I’m sleepy” leading to the maladaptive neuro-physiological (NP) response of “eat palatable food” (etc).”

        Are you asking, “Where in Plantinga’s argument did he even mention sleepiness leading to eat food?”? He doesn’t. I never said he did. I only said that Plantinga’s model of actions bearing no relationship with reality (the dumb luck approach to survival) is not what natural selection would cause.

        That was the point of the jumbled table connecting motivations with bizarre instinctive actions–evolution would simply not select for that. That creature would be too dumb to live.

        “It is not concerned with whether the belief leading to that NP response is true or not.”

        Right–natural selection doesn’t lead to beliefs that are correct. We’re both familiar with loads of mental biases and failings that humans are saddled with. But that doesn’t mean that natural selection can’t encourage traits that actually happen to mesh nicely with reality.

        “With all due respect, once again, you need to respond to Plantinga’s ACTUAL ARGUMENT rather than a straw-man mischaracterization of it.”

        Obviously.

        (reply)
        • Scott Youngren  July 10, 2012

          Bob:

          Thanks for getting back to me. Plantinga is not in any way suggesting that survival promoting responses are dumb luck. As I cited Plantinga in my previous reply, Plantinga says (without any qualification) that “natural selection selects for adaptive NP [neuro-physiological] properties.”

          So, referencing your example of Paul and the tiger, Plantinga would not deny that natural selection would select the appropriate neuro-physiological [NP] response of running away or hiding. A NP response of running or hiding would be the “adaptive NP property” in such a case. Plantinga’s key point here is that “natural selection just has to take pot-luck with respect to the propositions or content determined by those adaptive NP properties.”

          So the “propositions or content” in your Paul and the tiger example could be anything from “I should run and hide from the tiger because doing so will make me rich and famous” to “I should run and hide from the tiger because it will make grow 2 inches taller” to the most accurate proposition (or content) of “I should run and hide from the tiger because it will prevent him from eating me.”

          In summary, natural selection will select adaptive NP properties (such as running and hiding from a tiger), but it CANNOT determine the propositions or content determined by those adaptive NP properties. This is why naturalism leaves us with no reason to think that the propositions or content of naturalism (or any other belief) contain any truth. It just leaves us with Charles Darwin’s “horrid doubt” that our beliefs can contain anything more than the “convictions of a monkey’s mind.”

          (reply)
      • Terry S  September 16, 2012

        Scott: that the natural world is self-existent

        Terry S: What is self-existent? If you mean did it create itself the answer is no, it didn’t. It has always existed. There was no beginning.

        Scott: Atheists insist that naturalism is the worldview most compatible with science

        Terry S: Atheist insist no such thing. I am an atheist and science has nothing to do with my theological position. Simply put, the theist claim is that god exists. The atheist claim is that theists haven’t supported their claim. It has nothing to do with science.

        (reply)
    • Dave  April 14, 2013

      Natural selection is not mindless and random, but it only cares about how well your brain matches stimuli (food, a mate, a rival, a predator) with responses (eating, mating, confronting, fleeing). The contents of your beliefs about the world only matter to the extent that they interfere with the production of the correct response. So if your beliefs about the external world deviate from reality in the same way that your beliefs about how you react to the external world, natural selection will simply ignore your false beliefs. For example, if you believe that you see a food source, but you actually are encountering a predator, natural selection will completely ignore that mistake if you think that you are eating the food when you are really fleeing the predator as quickly as possible. And since there are an infinite number of ways that your beliefs about reality can deviate from reality, and only one way that your beliefs about reality can actually correspond to reality, the odds of a brain produced by natural selection having mostly true beliefs are negligible at best, unless there is something more than “blind, pitiless indifference” at work in the universe.

      (reply)
  2. Bob Seidensticker  July 10, 2012

    “Plantinga says (without any qualification) that “natural selection selects for adaptive NP [neuro-physiological] properties.””

    Right. And that’s why I tried to rephrase it so we had a common understanding. I have no idea what Plantinga’s trying to say.

    I usually get my information about biology from biologists, so I don’t feel bound by Plantinga. Let’s just drop Plantinga. I’d rather discuss your understanding of the argument rather than have to wade through Plantinga’s and worry that I’m misunderstanding somehow.

    We seem to be going around in circles. Yes, I understand that you’re saying that we hypothesize that Paul has internal programming that says, “I should run and hide from the tiger because X,” where X could be anything. And if X could be any of, say, 1000 things (only one being “because the tiger would eat me, and that would be bad”), then it’s just dumb luck that the correct one would be chosen.

    As I said earlier, your challenge is to show that these 1000 justifications would be equally likely, since this isn’t what evolution says. Evolution says that there’s no guarantee that the justification would be accurate but that that an accurate justification is more likely than any other option. Your imaginary Paul who thinks, “I should run and hide from tigers because that’ll make me rich and famous” (and similarly, “I should avoid quicksand because it’s bad for my complexion” and “I should eat cooked food instead of raw because it’ll make the sun come up tomorrow”) is just too dumb to live.

    (And speaking of personalities, let’s leave Charles Darwin out of it as well. What Darwin wrote is interesting only for historians and is irrelevant to evolution today.)

    Let me say, however, that I do now see the distinction you’re making between the action and the justification for that action. My post was focused on actions, and if I were to tackle this topic again, I’d need to make that correction. Thanks for that.

    (reply)
    • Scott Youngren  July 10, 2012

      Bob:

      You say, “Evolution says that there’s no guarantee that the justification would be accurate but that an accurate justification is more likely than any other option.” But how does evolution demonstrate that an accurate justification is more likely than any other option? You take this for granted and you ignore Plantinga’s point that natural selection selects for NP properties that improve an organisms chances of survival, but does not select for the content or propositions of those NP properties. This is because the content or propositions of NP properties have absolutely nothing to do with improving or harming an organisms chances of survival….only the NP properties themselves (such as the NP property of having an inclination to run from tigers) effect survivability. A NP property of running and hiding from tigers with the content or proposition of “doing so will make me rich and famous” has just as much survival value as a NP property of running and hiding from tigers with the content or proposition of “doing so will protect me from being eaten.”

      And when you assert that “Your imaginary Paul who thinks ‘I should run and hide from tigers because that’ll make me rich and famous’ is just too dumb to live,” you are again overlooking the fact that the content or proposition of the NP property has absolutely nothing to do with improving or harming survival value. The content or proposition of “running from tigers will make me rich and famous” is plenty absurd to you and I, but, from an evolutionary perspective, there is nothing about this proposition that will either harm or improve survivability.

      (reply)
      • Bob Seidensticker  July 10, 2012

        You take this for granted and you ignore Plantinga’s point that natural selection selects for NP properties that improve an organisms chances of survival, but does not select for the content or propositions of those NP properties.

        In the domain of biology, I have little interest in what Plantinga thinks. He’s not a biologist, right? What I’d like to see is a biologist confirming your claim that any justification (answer to “why?”) is as likely as any other.

        (reply)
        • Scott Youngren  July 11, 2012

          So you are suggesting that the content of a person’s thoughts lies within the scope of biology? How can the content of a person’s thoughts lie within the scope of biology? Can you please explain? Can the thought “I want to visit the zoo today,” for example, be studied by a biologist? How about the thought, “I prefer living in New York to Los Angeles”?

          But since you have asked to “see a biologist confirming [my] claim,” I will humor you. Sean McDowell notes in his essay Are Science and Christianity at Odds?:

          “Toward the end of The God Delusion, [atheist biologist Richard] Dawkins admits that since we are the product of natural selection, our senses cannot be fully trusted. …Since a human being has been cobbled together through the blind process of natural selection acting on random mutation, says Dawkins, it’s unlikely that our views of the world are completely true.” (Please see pages 411-417 of The God Delusion).

          Also, did you forget that I furnished Charles Darwin’s views on this subject matter (in the essay)?

          Further, when you say that you have little interest in what Plantinga thinks, you are trying to reframe his argument as an opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but what Plantinga has done is construct a rational argument. Can you respond to Plantinga’s argument with a counter-argument? That is the question.

          Please also note that an argument is not made valid or invalid by the person who presents it. Rather, an argument is made valid or invalid by the strength or weakness of its premises. For example, the argument “it is in the best interest of our society to prevent contagious diseases” is just as valid when presented by Bozo the Clown as when presented by a public health expert. And even when such an argument is presented by a public health expert, his or her premises would still be subject to examination and validation by non-public health experts.

          So even if the content of a person’s thoughts fell within the scope of biology, the arguments made by a biologist on this subject matter would still be subject to logical analysis.

          (reply)
          • Bob Seidensticker  July 11, 2012

            So you are suggesting that the content of a person’s thoughts lies within the scope of biology?

            I’m saying that, if we’re critiquing evolution, we should look to Biology to see what it says.

            since we are the product of natural selection, our senses cannot be fully trusted. …Since a human being has been cobbled together through the blind process of natural selection acting on random mutation, says Dawkins, it’s unlikely that our views of the world are completely true.”

            Yep. I’ve already said and agreed to that.

            when you say that you have little interest in what Plantinga thinks, you are trying to reframe his argument as an opinion.

            When I say that I have little interest in what Plantinga things, I’m saying that, when the topic is biology, I won’t get a critique from anything less than a biologist.

            Am I confused here? It seems like Plantinga sketches out one aspect of how evolution works: that the justification behind an action is immune to natural selection. To our example, the correct justification of Paul’s action (tigers are dangerous and it sucks to be eaten) is just one of 1000 equally likely justifications for natural selection to select.

            OK, he’s made his claim about evolution. Now I want to see if that claim stands up to scrutiny within biology.

            (And no, my points don’t fail due to the genetic fallacy.)

          • Scott Youngren  July 22, 2012

            Bob:

            Sorry about the delayed reply, I have been busy with work.

            I’m saying that, if we’re critiquing evolution, we should look to Biology to see what it says.

            So you apparently ARE saying that the contents and propositions of one’s thoughts is something that fits within the realm of biology? What do you suppose biology would have to say about the content of my thought “I prefer living in New York to living in Los Angeles.” Or my thought “I would like to visit the zoo today”?

            Either the contents of one’s thoughts fits within the scope of biology or it does not. Which is it? When you say “if we are critiquing evolution, we should look to biology to see what it says,” it very much sounds like you are implying that the content and propositions of one’s thoughts fits within the realm of biology.

            Yep. I’ve already said and agreed to that.

            OK, you have agreed to what Dawkins says about our inability to trust our views of the world. Then what is your basis for trusting the naturalist view of the world (in which you appear to believe) which says that the universe is self-existent and therefore does not require a transcendent cause? How about any of the beliefs that you or any other naturalist holds about evolution? What would be the basis for trusting any of those beliefs? This is the crux of what I mean when I say that naturalism (and by extension, atheism) is self-defeating.

            When I say that I have little interest in what Plantinga things, I’m saying that, when the topic is biology, I won’t get a critique from anything less than a biologist.

            Am I confused here? It seems like Plantinga sketches out one aspect of how evolution works: that the justification behind an action is immune to natural selection. To our example, the correct justification of Paul’s action (tigers are dangerous and it sucks to be eaten) is just one of 1000 equally likely justifications for natural selection to select.

            OK, he’s made his claim about evolution. Now I want to see if that claim stands up to scrutiny within biology.

            Once again, we get into the question of whether or not the content and propositions of one’s thoughts fits within the realm of biology. It would be impossible to construct a reasonable argument to support such a thesis. If you think you can do so, by all means please feel free to do so.

            When you make a statement such as “Plantinga sketches out one aspect of how evolution works,” you are clearly implying that the content and propositions of one’s thoughts fall within the realm of biology. What Plantinga is suggesting is that the content and propositions of one’s thoughts are a factor that are NOT influenced by evolutionary considerations. You seem to have missed this.

            What I suspect is going on here is that you participate in the worldview known as “scientism,” which I discuss in my essay titled I Believe in Science: Why Do I Need Religion? As I discuss in this essay, scientism proposes that the only kind of knowledge that we can have is scientific knowledge. The problem with this proposition is that this very proposition can never be verified scientifically.

            An excerpt from that essay:

            How could a statement such as, “The only kind of knowledge that we can have is scientific knowledge,” be verified scientifically? With a chemistry experiment utilizing a bunsen burner and test tubes? With a physics experiment utilizing a particle accelerator? Because the belief that, “The only kind of knowledge that we can have is scientific knowledge” CAN NEVER ITSELF BE SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE, it is a self-refuting belief.

            So you seem to be engaging in the following scientistic (not to be confused with “scientific”) circular argument:

            1) You start from the pre-supposition that human beings are exclusively biological entities.

            2) From this pre-supposition, you reason that all of human experience can be subjected to biological study.

            3) Because (supposedly) all of human experience can be subjected to biological study, you reason right back to the pre-supposition that you started with…human beings are exclusively biological entities.

  3. Bob Seidensticker  July 22, 2012

    Scott:

    So you apparently ARE saying that the contents and propositions of one’s thoughts is something that fits within the realm of biology?

    I’m saying that “evolution is limited in way X” is a claim within biology and should be evaluated by biologists.

    What do you suppose biology would have to say about the content of my thought “I prefer living in New York to living in Los Angeles.”

    That you could analyze it biochemically (poorly today, better in the future), but that that’s a clumsy way to do so.

    OK, you have agreed to what Dawkins says about our inability to trust our views of the world.

    We can’t trust it 100%. What our brains tell us about the world is somewhat accurate. Science is a tool that can help us work together to improve the accuracy of our understanding.

    Then what is your basis for trusting the naturalist view of the world (in which you appear to believe) which says that the universe is self-existent and therefore does not require a transcendent cause?

    Suppose we have the hypothesis 1 + 1 = 2. We try it on pebbles and it seems to work in any case. We try it on goats and it still seems to work. Our confidence grows in our hypothesis, but we’re still looking out for the one counterexample that would demolish the claim “1 + 1 = 2 in all cases.”

    That’s how it is with naturalism. Primitive man imagined agency where there was one. Not surprising. A skittish ancestor was likelier to survive than one who thought, “Nah, that’s not a dangerous anim—.“

    We haven’t ruled out the possibility that there is a transcendent cause, just like we haven’t ruled out the possibility that 1 + 1 = 2 could be false in some cases. But we go where the facts lead, and there is no evidence to support a transcendent cause.

    How about any of the beliefs that you or any other naturalist holds about evolution? What would be the basis for trusting any of those beliefs?

    Science is pretty reliable; evolution is the scientific consensus; therefore, evolution is the best working theory we have at the moment and we should proceed accordingly.

    If you think you can do so, by all means please feel free to do so.

    It’s not me who’s making the claim, it’s you (correct me if I’m wrong). You are talking about limitations to natural selection. Heck, maybe you’re right. So let’s ask the guys who can actually evaluate this claim (biologists) rather than two lay knuckleheads like us.

    What Plantinga is suggesting is that the content and propositions of one’s thoughts are a factor that are NOT influenced by evolutionary considerations. You seem to have missed this.

    Uh, no, this is precisely what I’m saying. Plantinga is claiming limitations to how evolution works. That’s not enough for me; I don’t get my biology from philosophers, sorry. But I don’t want to dismiss this claim either, so let’s get an evaluation from biologists.

    The problem with this proposition is that this very proposition is something that science cannot tell us.

    Arg! The dreaded self-refuting statement. The naturalist is hoist by his own petard, eh?

    My own view is that science appears to be the way to truth, so I use that. Doesn’t prove that science doesn’t have blind spots, but since it’s delivering on its claims in spades (unlike fields like, say, theology), I’ll go with that. There’s no absolutism in my thinking; if something is shown to be limited, we accept those limitations and adapt accordingly. When we find limitations to science, great, let’s incorporate that into our worldview. But we adjust our worldview based on evidence, not wishful thinking.

    (reply)
    • Scott Youngren  July 22, 2012

      I’m saying that “evolution is limited in way X” is a claim within biology and should be evaluated by biologists.

      So the statement that “all of human beliefs are biologically determined” is a biological statement rather than a philosophical statement? Is that correct? If so, how could the validity of such a statement be verified biologically? With an experiment involving a petri dish and a microscope?

      You fail to see the self-defeating nature of your argument. The premise that “all human beliefs have a biological basis” is itself a premise that CAN NEVER HAVE A BIOLOGICAL BASIS. Unless you can provide a scientific basis for your views, your views are necessarily extra-scientific and therefore philosophical/religious. The view that “science will eventually provide an explanation for everything” is not a scientific view because it does not have a scientific basis. It is therefore necessarily an extra-scientific and therefore philosophical/religious belief. Furthermore, it is a philosophical/religious belief that can NEVER be scientifically verified because science cannot verify the presuppositions upon which science is based.

      That you could analyze it [the content an propositions of thougths] biochemically (poorly today, better in the future), but that that’s a clumsy way to do so.

      Bob, you seem to be blind to the problem with the view that human thoughts are nothing but electrical and chemical activity in the brain that are determined biologically to maximize fitness. If this is so, then the belief that human thoughts are nothing but electrical and chemical activity in the brain that are determined biologically in order to maximize fitness is itself nothing but electrical and chemical activity in the brain that was determined biologically in order to maximize fitness.

      We can’t trust it 100%. What our brains tell us about the world is somewhat accurate. Science is a tool that can help us work together to improve the accuracy of our understanding.

      You agree with Dawkins that we can’t trust our beliefs 100%. But what basis have you provided that we can trust our beliefs (such as a belief in naturalism) even 1/2 of 1%? If the content and propositions of a belief cannot be biologically determined, but are just selected from a pot-luck (as Plantinga explains), then how can we trust them even 1/2 of 1%? If the content and propositions of a belief CAN be determined by biological processes, then feel free to cite any biologist as to how this can be so. If this is a question for biology, than please provide a biological explanation. The explanation that “biology will explain it in the future” is not a biological explanation. Rather, it is an extra-scientific and therefore philosophical/religious explanation. And it is a self-defeating philosophical/religious explanation because if human beliefs are nothing but chemical and electrical activity in the brain, then the belief that biology will explain it in the future is nothing but chemical and electrical activity in the brain.

      Suppose we have the hypothesis 1 + 1 = 2. We try it on pebbles and it seems to work in any case. We try it on goats and it still seems to work. Our confidence grows in our hypothesis, but we’re still looking out for the one counterexample that would demolish the claim “1 + 1 = 2 in all cases.”

      That’s how it is with naturalism. Primitive man imagined agency where there was one. Not surprising. A skittish ancestor was likelier to survive than one who thought, “Nah, that’s not a dangerous anim—.“

      We haven’t ruled out the possibility that there is a transcendent cause, just like we haven’t ruled out the possibility that 1 + 1 = 2 could be false in some cases. But we go where the facts lead, and there is no evidence to support a transcendent cause.

      This is a great example of how you conflate science with the PHILOSOPHICAL belief known as naturalism. If naturalism were a scientific rather than philosophical view, you would be able to provide scientific validation for its premises. What scientific validation can you provide for the naturalistic premise that “the universe is self-existent and therefore does not require a transcendent cause”? What scientific validation could you provide for the naturalistic premise that “the mechanisms which drive biological evolution are self-existent and therefore do not require a source or an explanation”? Even the view that “science will one day provide answers to such questions” is itself an extra-scientific and therefore philosophical/religious view.

      You state that “there is no evidence to support a transcendent cause.” And yet, there is VAST evidence to support a transcendent cause. I touch upon this evidence in the following essays:

      1) Is There A God: (What is the chance that our world is the result of chance?)

      2) God is Real: What It All Boils Down To

      3) Why Life Could Not Have Emerged Without God

      Science is pretty reliable; evolution is the scientific consensus; therefore, evolution is the best working theory we have at the moment and we should proceed accordingly.

      Yes, but here, again, you are conflating science with the philosophical belief system of naturalism. If evolution is the best scientific explanation for the diversification of life, then we need an ontological explanation of where the mechanisms that drive evolution came from. I get into detail regarding this topic in the “short take” titled Why Evolution Cannot Be Used to Rationalize Atheism. Explaining the diversification of life from a putative common ancestor through the mechanism of random mutation and natural selection does nothing to provide any final ontological answers. Rather, it just delays the question. We are left with the question of where these mechanisms came from.

      Uh, no, this is precisely what I’m saying. Plantinga is claiming limitations to how evolution works. That’s not enough for me; I don’t get my biology from philosophers, sorry. But I don’t want to dismiss this claim either, so let’s get an evaluation from biologists.

      Once again, you are reasoning from the presupposition that the content and propositions of one’s thoughts are biologically based. But you have provided us with no biological basis for this. Feel free to cite any explanation from any biologist you can find for how the content and proposition of one’s thoughts are biologically determined. You have failed to do this.

      The explanation that “biology will explain it in the future” is not a scientific explanation because this proposition itself does not have a scientific basis. It is therefore an extra-scientific, and therefore philosophical/religious premise.

      Arg! The dreaded self-refuting statement. The naturalist is hoist by his own petard, eh?

      My own view is that science appears to be the way to truth, so I use that. Doesn’t prove that science doesn’t have blind spots, but since it’s delivering on its claims in spades (unlike fields like, say, theology), I’ll go with that. There’s no absolutism in my thinking; if something is shown to be limited, we accept those limitations and adapt accordingly. When we find limitations to science, great, let’s incorporate that into our worldview. But we adjust our worldview based on evidence, not wishful thinking.

      You say that “your own view is that science appears to be the way to truth”. Since you say “the way,” I am going to infer that you mean that the only kind of knowledge we can have is scientific knowledge. What I am looking for is a scientific validation for the premise that “the only kind of knowledge we can have is scientific knowledge.” How could such a premise be verified scientifically? With a chemistry experiment involving a bunsen burner and test tubes? With a biology experiment involving a petri dish and a microscope? Please explain.

      Since you insist that the theistic worldview has no evidence, please respond to the evidence presented in the three essays that I mentioned above (to start).

      Please also detail what “evidence” you used to arrive at your naturalistic worldview. For example, what evidence do you have that the universe emerged during the Big Bang purely as the result of unintelligent natural mechanisms? Can you even describe what these natural mechanisms were that caused the Big Bang to happen, let alone provide evidence for them? How about the emergence of life from non-life? What was the mechanism that allowed that to happen? Can you even cite the mechanism, let alone cite evidence for it? As I detail in Why Life Could Not Have Emerged Without God, the mechanisms cited by various highly prominent atheist biologists include but are not limited to 1) Intervention from space aliens 2) Life came to earth from space without aliens 3) A piggyback ride on crystals.

      (reply)
      • Bob Seidensticker  July 23, 2012

        I think we’re going in circles here. You said earlier, “natural selection selects for NP properties that improve an organisms chances of survival, but does not select for the content or propositions of those NP properties.” That’s a claim about natural selection; that’s a claim within the field of biology. Again, I’m asking that we have biologists evaluate that claim.

        What scientific validation can you provide for the naturalistic premise that “the universe is self-existent and therefore does not require a transcendent cause”?

        Haven’t we been over this? I don’t make such a claim. I simply say that the claim that the universe can only be explained with a transcendent cause has insufficient evidence in favor of it; therefore, I must (provisionally) reject it. Show me sufficient evidence, and I’ll change my mind. Until that point, I would be an idiot to believe such a monumental claim with insufficient evidence.

        You delight in trying to show my argument as self-contradicting (it’s not, because I’m not saying what you’re claiming I’m saying) without trying to shore up your own argument. Even if you imagine that I have nothing, what have you got? For me to accept the incredible claim that there was a transcendent cause for the universe, I gotta have that evidence. Simply showing that my argument is in tatters does zilch to support yours.

        Sorry, I haven’t had time to read your long posts. Can you summarize?

        (And just a metacomment: you make yourself look ridiculous when deny evolution. It’s hard to then take anything else you say seriously. I realize that your saying idiotic thing X says nothing about the validity of thing Y that you also say, but help me out here. You’re not making yourself look credible. I’m just sayin’.)

        If evolution is the best scientific explanation for the diversification of life, then we need an ontological explanation of where the mechanisms that drive evolution came from.

        And what out if we agree that God did it? Do we still need an ontological explanation of that??

        “Oh, don’t worry about that; God’s always existed” doesn’t do it for me, I’m afraid.

        Why Evolution Cannot Be Used to Rationalize Atheism.

        And I don’t do so. Destroy the theory of evolution and you’ve done nothing to support the hypothesis that God exists.

        We are left with the question of where these mechanisms came from.

        With evolution as an explanation, you’re left tossing and turning at night, wondering about what underlies that … but with “God dun it!” you’re sleeping like a baby?

        The God explanation is simply a relabeling of the questions at the frontier of science.

        The explanation that “biology will explain it in the future”

        Huh??

        What I am looking for is a scientific validation for the premise that “the only kind of knowledge we can have is scientific knowledge.”

        Drop the self-refuting angle, will you? Doesn’t apply. Getting tedious.

        Say we have the hypothesis that scientific knowledge is reliable. We test that hypothesis, and we adapt accordingly. If science doesn’t give us reliable knowledge, we dial back our confidence. If something besides science gives us reliable knowledge (I don’t know—history, maybe, if the techniques within history wouldn’t be considered scientific), then we broaden the sources of reliable knowledge in our hypothesis.

        We won’t be able to prove this hypothesis. Indeed, we never prove a scientific hypothesis, law, or theory. Everything within science is provisional. We adapt.

        (reply)
        • Scott Youngren  July 23, 2012

          I think we’re going in circles here. You said earlier, “natural selection selects for NP properties that improve an organisms chances of survival, but does not select for the content or propositions of those NP properties.” That’s a claim about natural selection; that’s a claim within the field of biology. Again, I’m asking that we have biologists evaluate that claim.

          Yes, we are going in circles, Bob, because you are not responding to the points that I am making. You say, “That’s a claim about natural selection; that’s a claim within the field of biology.” But you:

          1) Repeatedly ignore the fact that Plantinga is arguing that the content and propositions of one’s thoughts does NOT fit within the realm of biology.

          2) Repeatedly ask “that we have biologists evaluate that claim” while simultaneously failing to provide the evaluation by a biologist that I repeatedly ask for.

          But since you have not, will not, and CANNOT provide any evaluation by a biologist that establishes how the content and propositions of one’s thoughts could be biologically determined, what choice do we have but to assume that this is a question THAT DOES NOT FALL WITHIN THE REALM OF BIOLOGY?

          Here is the argument, again, for why the content and propositions of one’s thoughts do not fall within the realm of biology. This is the argument that YOU NEED TO RESPOND TO:

          1) If our beliefs are biologically determined by evolution to maximize fitness, then the belief that our beliefs are biologically determined by evolution to maximize fitness is ITSELF a belief that was biologically determined by evolution to maximize fitness. And what evolutionary advantage would such a belief provide? And if beliefs evolve to provide fitness, what basis do we have for assuming that they also provide truth? None whatsoever, because a false belief can provide just as much survival value as a corresponding true belief. For example, the belief that running from a lion will make one rich and famous provides just as much survival value as the belief that running from a lion will protect one from being eaten.

          Further, since science biology is only a few hundred years old, how could any beliefs about biology evolve in only a few hundred years? Did our 18th century ancestor who did not believe that beliefs are biologically determined die off for some reason?

          2) Biology only examines the biological workings of the brain (chemical and electrical activity), not the content of one’s thoughts. If the content of one’s thoughts is nothing but chemical and electrical activity in the brain, then this very belief (that the contents of one’s thoughts is nothing but the chemical and electrical activity in the brain) is nothing but the chemical and electrical activity in a naturalist’s brain. But if thoughts and beliefs ARE more than just the chemical and electrical workings of the brain, then thoughts and beliefs do not fall within the scope of biology. Chemical/electrical activity can neither be true nor false. How would one distinguish between a true and false electrical impulse? By the wattage of that electrical impulse? What chemical property would a true belief have that would distinguish it from a false belief? A higher PH level? The assertion that beliefs fall within the scope of biology is patently absurd.

          These 2 above points are what you need to respond to rather than continuing to assert that the content and propositions of one’s thoughts fall within the scope of biology without providing a rational basis for your assertion. You suggest that it falls within the scope of biology because the view that it does not fall within the scope of biology places a limitation on biology, and only biologists can determine the limitations on biology. But can only dentists determine the limitations of dentistry? Can only doctors determine the limits of medicine? Can only chemists determine the limitations on chemistry? Your reasoning evades me.

          Even if you imagine that I have nothing, what have you got? For me to accept the incredible claim that there was a transcendent cause for the universe, I gotta have that evidence. Simply showing that my argument is in tatters does zilch to support yours.

          Sorry, I haven’t had time to read your long posts. Can you summarize?

          Sorry, but I am going to have to call your bluff. You clearly have the time to invest in writing long replies to my comments, so I have every reason to assume that you have time to read a roughly 2 page essay.

          So lets just go one essay at a time in order to conserve your time. The first essay which provides compelling evidence for theism is titled Is There A God (What Is the Chance That Our World Is the Result of Chance)? I am going to assert that if, as this essay demonstrates, the majority of astronomers/astrophysicists have come to theistic/deistic conclusions, then there is sufficient evidence that you need to respond to with a point-by-point rebuttal, rather than a sweeping and facile dismissal as “insufficient evidence.” Is this too bold of a claim?

          (And just a metacomment: you make yourself look ridiculous when deny evolution. It’s hard to then take anything else you say seriously. I realize that your saying idiotic thing X says nothing about the validity of thing Y that you also say, but help me out here. You’re not making yourself look credible. I’m just sayin’.)

          Except that I never have denied evolution. That is something that you made up. If I am wrong, then show me where I did so. You can’t and you won’t because I never did. Period.

          What other conclusion should we derive from your false allegation other than the conclusion that you are trying to distract attention from the bankruptcy of your arguments?

          “Oh, don’t worry about that; God’s always existed” doesn’t do it for me, I’m afraid.

          Then please provide your own counter ontological explanation.

          Since time, like matter and energy, began with the Big Bang, whatever brought the universe into existence clearly exists outside of time.

          And I don’t do so. Destroy the theory of evolution and you’ve done nothing to support the hypothesis that God exists.

          Who ever said anything about destroying the theory of evolution? You clearly did not read the post titled Why Evolution Cannot Be Used to Rationalize Atheism in the “short takes” section. Don’t worry, it is not a very long essay. I am not in any way trying to destroy the theory of evolution. Rather, I am demonstrating that the theory of evolution, whatever truth it may hold, cannot be used to rationalize atheism. And as the essay demonstrates, Charles Darwin agreed with me.

          With evolution as an explanation, you’re left tossing and turning at night, wondering about what underlies that … but with “God dun it!” you’re sleeping like a baby?

          The God explanation is simply a relabeling of the questions at the frontier of science.

          Here, again, you 1) conflate science with the philosophical/religious belief system of naturalism and 2) you confuse science with ontology. “The God explanation” is an ontological explanation, not a scientific explanation. Ontological explanations underlie scientific reasoning, they do not compete with scientific reasoning. For example, no matter what natural mechanisms are discovered by science in the future, the ontological question of where these mechanisms came from will always be there. Please provide a counter ontological explanation of where natural mechanisms come from.

          Drop the self-refuting angle, will you? Doesn’t apply. Getting tedious.

          Say we have the hypothesis that scientific knowledge is reliable. We test that hypothesis, and we adapt accordingly. If science doesn’t give us reliable knowledge, we dial back our confidence. If something besides science gives us reliable knowledge (I don’t know—history, maybe, if the techniques within history wouldn’t be considered scientific), then we broaden the sources of reliable knowledge in our hypothesis.

          We won’t be able to prove this hypothesis. Indeed, we never prove a scientific hypothesis, law, or theory. Everything within science is provisional. We adapt.

          I’m afraid I cannot drop the self-refuting angle. Your statement that it “doesn’t apply” needs some sort of rational validation. Whether or not it it tedious is an entirely different matter from whether or not it is true.

          You write “Say we have the hypothesis that scientific knowledge is reliable. We test that hypothesis, and we adapt accordingly.” But what we are looking for here is an explanation of HOW such an hypothesis could ever be tested scientifically. Could you test the hypothesis “scientific knowledge is reliable” with the above mentioned chemistry experiment utilizing a bunsen burner and test tubes? Or would it be a biology experiment involving a petri dish and a microscope? Some other scientific experiment that I have overlooked?

          You have to re-evaluate whether the premise that “scientific knowledge is reliable” is a scientific or philosophical premise.

          (reply)
  4. Bob Seidensticker  July 23, 2012

    I’ve gently and repeatedly pointed out that your claim “natural selection selects for NP properties that improve an organisms chances of survival, but does not select for the content or propositions of those NP properties” is a biological claim. I guess it’s inconvenient for you to respond to this, so you focus your attention elsewhere and argue that, you don’t want to follow this line of reasoning anymore and some other question is the actual focus.

    If failing to play your game means that you win, so be it. Declare victory–I give up.

    I never have denied evolution.

    Terrific!

    you are trying to distract attention from the bankruptcy of your arguments?

    Yeah, that must be it. Ouch!

    You clearly did not read the post titled Why Evolution Cannot Be Used to Rationalize Atheism

    And I clearly made that clear.

    Charles Darwin agreed with me.

    That’s nice, but no one cares what Darwin said.

    What is your scientific evidence for the belief that “the only kind of knowledge we can have is scientific knowledge”?

    Have none. And that doesn’t bother me as I explained before.

    (reply)
    • Scott Youngren  August 22, 2012

      I’ve gently and repeatedly pointed out that your claim “natural selection selects for NP properties that improve an organisms chances of survival, but does not select for the content or propositions of those NP properties” is a biological claim. I guess it’s inconvenient for you to respond to this, so you focus your attention elsewhere and argue that, you don’t want to follow this line of reasoning anymore and some other question is the actual focus.

      No, I have responded to this repeatedly. What basis do you have for the assertion that it is a biological claim? You seem to take this as a given that does not need defense. But assuming that the content and propositions of a thought are biological is an enormous leap of faith that has no empirical support whatsoever. I asked you before and I will ask you again: If the content and propositions of a thought are biologically determined, how could you distinguish a true belief from a false belief? Would a true belief have a higher voltage during the firing of the synapses in the brain? Would the brain chemistry of a true belief be different from the brain chemistry of a false belief?

      Please, please explain how biology could be applied to distinguish between a true and false belief. You have not done this, but rather have continued to merely assert your view that the content and propositions of a belief are biologically determined. You must present an argument, not merely repeat an assertion.

      That’s nice, but no one cares what Darwin said.

      Now that is a first. I have never heard an atheist say such a thing.

      (reply)
  5. Barry Whyte  August 26, 2012

    This guy is such a joke -he is typical of a closed minded Creationist…he has been brainwashed. If he lived 10,000 years ago (before God created the world haha) he wouldn’t believe any of what he is saying.He hasn’t presented 1 argument that i have thought good point and i came here to find one.

    (reply)
    • Scott Youngren  August 26, 2012

      I am going to say this as gently as possible, but I will have to be blunt when bluntness is necessary:

      Sir, you have to decide if you want to respond with rationally constructed arguments, or just with strident rhetoric (which is all that you have done so far…”joke,” “brainwashed”). Secondly, you need to decide if you want to respond to the ACTUAL ARGUMENTS, presented by Christians such as myself, or take the easy road out and just react to your crude caricatures of Christian arguments.

      For example, regarding your “10,000 years ago” comment, the bible and science are remarkably similar in their accounts of the age of the earth. This is demonstrated in my essay titled Doesn’t Evolution Prove the Biblical Account of Creation to Be False. In this essay, I cite (and link to a video by) Gerald Schroeder, who has the unique qualifications of being both a physicist (formerly on staff at MIT) and a biblical scholar.

      (Click here) to read an article by Schroeder about this remarkable agreement between the bible and science about the age of the earth.

      In my experience with this website, it has been my observation that doctrinaire atheists will not reply to the arguments presented with actual logically constructed rebuttals. Rather, they will just fire off salvo after salvo of forceful and repetitious rhetoric. If you would like to be an exception to this rule, I would be delighted.

      I must point out that rhetoric and caricatures are what one falls back on when one is not able to present a rationally constructed, fact based defense. Any reasonable third party viewer will be able to see that what you have presented so far amounts to nothing more than an evasion of the arguments, as opposed to a logical reply to the arguments.

      This, I will assert, is because you can’t respond to the arguments made in this essay, because the atheist position is indefensible. What are your specific, point-by-point, logically constructed replies to the points made in this essay?

      I eagerly await your reply to the points made in this essay, and if you are so inclined, to the points in the other essay that I have mentioned above. I will warn that the Gerald Schroeder video will present a fairly significant time commitment, but nothing would please me more than an atheist who is actually willing to logically engage with the material rather than merely evade it.

      (reply)
  6. Justin  September 2, 2012

    I must say this is bullshit. I’m an atheist, and I can confirm that in general, creationists and fundies (not all Christians, mostly fundies) will not respond to or engage in any real logic. If you carefully construct arguments, they will often either evade them, or counter them with bullshit. There are 7 billion people in this world, and there are no unique thoughts or conversations. All arguments are bound to be repeated, and atheists just can’t get through to creationists because they are unwilling to use logic or reason. For this reason, any time we see classic bullshit arguments, that’s what we call “brainwashed” because we know them to be true and know that refuting them logically will get us nowhere. I’m not here to actually respond to the content of the post though, so I hope you can be mature and understand that I’m not “evading” your points. It’s simply 3 am and I have no intention of debating right now about anything. I just found it necessary to shoot down your militant holier-than-thou attitude. You do seem to be much more logic oriented than most who I come accross, so I hope you do find stimulating discussion with rational atheists in the future, as it’s almost an atheist doctrine to discuss arguments in detail rather than rhetoric. I believe you can find my email address via this comment if you feel the need to discuss anything further, or if you are interested in debating over the actual content of your post. Cheers!

    (reply)
    • Scott Youngren  September 2, 2012

      Justin:

      I would love to engage in a rational discussion with you about this topic. However, so far you haven’t done anything more than spew out forceful rhetoric (“bullshit”, “brainwashed”, “militant holier-than-thou” etc).

      I must remind you that all rational third party observers of any debate will recognize that the use of forceful or strident rhetoric amounts to a tacit acknowledgement that one’s stance cannot withstand logical scrutiny. In other words, logical arguments that can stand up on their own do not need the support of harsh words (“bullshit”, “brainwashed”, “militant holier-than-thou”, etc.). Such harsh words are what one falls back upon when one’s arguments have fallen apart under logical scrutiny. Any time that you engage in such rhetoric, you will be tipping off third party observers of our debate that you have realized that your stance has not withstood the test of reason.

      For example, just think about it…did Einstein need to use forceful rhetoric to support his theories, or did he support his theories with logic and facts? Did he say something to the effect of “time and space can be warped,” and then support this point with logic…..or did he say “time and space can be warped, and if you don’t agree with me you are a brainwashed idiot”?

      The same goes for mudslinging generalizations about Christians: (“Christians will evade arguments or counter them with bullshit.”) Such generalizations about Christians are another way to distract attention from the inadequacy of your logical arguments…and will tip off third party observers of our debate as such. You must reply to the arguments made by this Christian rather than by making vague references to arguments made by someone else.

      I eagerly await any logically constructed, fact-based, point-by-point rebuttals that you have to the argument presented in this essay (or any of the other essays).

      (reply)
  7. Rubina  October 25, 2012

    Justin: That was clearly abusive ad hominem………

    (reply)
  8. Australian Atheist  October 26, 2012

    Scott, I am an atheist,a not very good one at that, TBH I think I just like arguing with people. You have honestly got me thinking. I don’t understand much of what the comments were, however it is clear that you destroyed all your ‘opponents’ them with actual logic. I am amazed at the few that had a cheap shot at you and as you said they probably won’t reply because it is all just rhetoric mumbo jumbo.

    Just thought I would say, you have me thinking really hard. I have a Christian enemy (really I like the guy) and I think I might just explore it further.

    For the anti creation camp, what a dear shame you couldn’t have the courtesy to reply (bar bob, who I just wish would have answered some of Scott’s questions)

    Atheist (maybe new agnostic) but still searching.

    Troy (Australia)

    (reply)
  9. Beachbum  October 27, 2012

    This is silly sophism. Fact: we don’t take our reasoning at face value because it does fail us continually. Our brain is evolved to keep us replicating our genetic make up whether by hook or by crook. And our brain can’t be trusted to reason intuitively about many things because of this ability of our brain to manipulate us emotionally. A powerful example of which would be an emotional attachment to the supernatural facilitation of an afterlife. A deity, of all things. Why else would primitive intellects, which can barely think at all, can easily imagine gods exists?

    A deity would make our intuition a viable source for knowledge, but nothing could be further from the truth. You, Alvin Plantinga, et al. have just destroyed theism: by admitting that intuition is a weak basis for beliefs, the god concept and creationism are finished. You have eliminated thought as a means for knowing some god. To reiterate: Our inability to intuit reality eliminates both the religionists’ and creationists’ claim that our brain is the product of creation facilitating belief in some deity. End of argument. Full stop.

    Science knows this due to its roots in, and violent escape from, what was a platonic view of reality proffered by religion. It was called the Enlightenment when men like David Hume said that a wise man proportions his beliefs to the evidence for a reason. The platonic nature of thought prior to Hume’s era retarded science for a thousand years. That is: we tried it your way. It fails miserably.

    It is the methodology of science that separates knowledge from belief and opinion. It separates emotionally held beliefs from facts. For opinions, hypotheses, etc. to attain the level of information, of knowledge, they need to be substantiated by evidence, peer reviews of interpretations of that evidence (as rendered by objective observation, experimentation, but by no means contemplation), and this means those opinions need to be falsifiable in the first place. Which means your feelings, your intuitions, don’t count as knowledge. This is why science has been so successful.

    And one more point: this is actually an old argument once proffered by C.S. Lewis, and it didn’t stand up to scrutiny then. Wow! The desperation speaks volumes.

    Tell Plantinga, and Strobel, thanks for eliminating theism though. Not that it needed another nail in its coffin.

    (reply)
    • Scott Youngren  October 27, 2012

      All that you have done here is make some assertions. You have not made a case for how humans could have access to truth if naturalism is true. Please state clearly how mindless random processes could have granted humans access to truth considering that natural selection selects for survivability, and not for anything else…such as truth. Further, the forcefulness with which you make some of your assertions (“silly sophism”, “the desperation speaks volumes”) should be considered a flag. A person with a rationally sound argument does not need to resort to such forceful rhetoric. Indeed, forceful rhetoric is a crutch used to support an argument that cannot stand on its own with logic. Each and every time you use forceful rhetoric in lieu of logical reasoning, you advertise the inadequacy of your argument to third party viewers of this discussion.

      Belief in God is not based upon mere intuition. Rather, it is based in solid logic. For just a taste of this logic, please read The Ultimate Cart Before the Horse (Why Atheism is Illogical) and Is There A God? What is the chance that our world is the result of chance? (and the closely related post titled OK…I want numbers. What is the probability that our universe is the result of chance?). Please also read Why Life Could Not Have Emerged Without God and the related post titled Why Trying to Explain Away God With Science is an Error.

      It is ironic that you have stated that “the methodology of science…separates emotionally held beliefs from facts.” Considering the emotional outpouring contained in your strident rhetoric, and your failure to demonstrate how humans could have access to truth assuming the veracity of naturalism, why should we consider your atheism to be anything other than an emotionally based belief?

      Upon what emotions do I suspect your atheism is based? Please read If the Evidence for God Is So Strong, Why Are So Many Smart People Unconvinced? In a nutshell, it is the repugnance that atheists feel towards the concept of being subject to a higher authority which serves as the emotional motivation for atheism.

      Next, I have to mention that whenever you imply that science and God are competing explanations, you are committing what is known in philosophy as a category error. I delve into this topic in Why Trying to Explain Away God With Science is an ERROR. In a nutshell, science does not explain anything. Rather, it only describes natural phenomena and provides no explanation.

      Lastly, you have not replied to the last part of THIS essay, in which I detail how Christianity was responsible for the rise of science. To this end, please review my citation of Stanley Jaki towards the end of the essay.

      (reply)
    • Graceus  October 27, 2012

      Beachbum,

      You write: “And our brain can’t be trusted to reason intuitively about many things because of this ability of our brain to manipulate us emotionally. A powerful example of which would be an emotional attachment to the supernatural facilitation of an afterlife. A deity, of all things. Why else would primitive intellects, which can barely think at all, can easily imagine gods exists?”

      What does the statement have to do with the truth of whether there is an afterlife or gods? You have shown us that natural selection would select for survival benefit-perhaps to alleviate emotional tension that would mentally harm the brain, but then could it not be said that atheists also decide not to believe in a God in order to relieve cognitive dissonance as well in order to aid in survival? So if both atheist and theist want to relieve cognitive dissonance by choosing their belief/unbelief, then which is true? They both cannot be right. So, natural selection does not select for _truth_ value – only survival value, and relieving cognitive dissonance would be a survival technique.

      I’m not sure if you read the essay when you write “You, Alvin Plantinga, et al. have just destroyed theism: by admitting that intuition is a weak basis for beliefs.” Actually, Plantinga is arguing that under naturalism, we have no reason to trust our reasoning. Scott has already given you a couple of essays that show that belief in God is not based upon mere intuition, and he has shown how the relationship between natural selection, intuition, and truth are problematic by Darwin, Churchland, and Nagel. If you and Bob think otherwise, the burden of proof is upon you to produce the justification for any counter claims that you have.

      (reply)
    • Jkwo  October 30, 2012

      I don’t understand, BeachBum. You state that the fact that the tendency for our fluctuating emotional states and other human attributes to compromise our ability to reason is highly damaging to the case for a divinely inspired intuition and therefore to the case for the Christian God. Basically, unless we are innately programmed to make maximally beneficial decisions for ourselves at every juncture (unless we are robots), then obviously the Christian God does not exist. Now I hate to use the Bible to argue with atheists, because I know how the response typically goes. However, I think it’s fair game here, since you’ve brought this debate into the territory of doctrine (by referencing the Christian account of the origins of human intuition). This is an incredibly basic topic, doctrinally speaking. If someone were to compile even a one-page summary of the Bible, you can guarantee that somewhere in there would be the notion that we were bestowed with free will by God, which includes the ability to make poor decisions for ourselves and others. No one has ever claimed that we were granted the omniscience of God or that human follies couldn’t corrupt our judgement. This argument is a non-starter.

      (reply)
  10. Graceus  October 29, 2012

    Don’t mention it ;)

    (reply)
  11. Troy  October 30, 2012

    Scott,
    Could you provide any of your scientific peer reviewed articles.

    (reply)
    • Scott Youngren  October 31, 2012

      This is not a website for performing scientific inquiry. You would need to go to a biology, physics, or chemistry (etc.) website for that. Rather this is a website that discusses the ontological question of God’s existence.

      (reply)
  12. Mitch Buck  October 31, 2012

    Sorry if this doesn’t add much to elevate the discussion, but I’m going to say it anyway: Scott clearly dismantled Bob’s arguments–nicely done. (This is coming from a doubting atheist by the way.) I cannot stand it when atheists presume that they’re the rational ones when, in fact, it’s clear to onlookers that they’re clueless. The smug, self-congratulatory attitude New Atheists have about their own “reasoning skills” is excruciatingly ironic.

    Plantinga’s argument is obscure sounding initially, but the more thought I’ve given it, the more troubling it is… Piling determinism onto it is even more of a challenge for the naturalist. An intellectual pursuit like physics or pure mathematics, where getting at the truth of things is the highest priority, just doesn’t seem to fit well within that sort of worldview; scientific laws or mathematical theorems did not arise out of an agent’s insight or creativity–no, the thoughts of these brilliant minds were determined by chemical/electrical events in the brain and were inevitable.

    Naturalism has some major holes in it, that’s for sure. But I cannot be held accountable for this opinion since the opinion itself was determined by prior chemical/electrical causes in my brain…

    (reply)
  13. Gerry  December 6, 2012

    Hi Scott. I hope you don’t mind me jumping in on this conversation you have had with Bob. I am a theist, I have read ‘Naturalism Defeated, and I tend to accept Plantinga’s argument. But still if I look at it from the point of view of an atheist naturalist, I can see something that is troubling and I wonder if you could help me clear that up.

    Let’s say Paul may run away from the tiger prompted by 10 possible beliefs and only 2 of those are ‘correct’, that is, only 2 are logical and reasonable (‘I do not want to feel pain’ or ‘I do not want to get killed’). Now, according to your argument (and Plantinga’s) the only thing that really matters here and the only thing that can be selected for is whether or not Paul is the kind of person who actually runs away from the tiger. The reason that prompts him to run away is irrelevant and cannot be selected for. That makes perfect sense to me. But then what do we do with the following reasoning.

    Let’s say it were possible for us to quiz every adult on earth. The quiz would consis of 1 question:”If you were confronted with a tiger, why would you run?”. And there would be 10 ‘multiple choice’ answers. 8 would be nonsensical, and 2 would be logical/reasonable. I think we should agree that upwards of 98% of these adults would pick 1 of the 2 ‘correct’ answers. Since we, more often than not, have the ability to pick the ‘correct’ answers, why shouldn’t we then assume that our ancestors had the abililty to pick the correct answers when confronted with survival situations? And why wouldn’t his ability to see the ‘correct’ answer then account for the survival of our ancestors and the survival of ourselves? This all seems to imply that seeing the correct answers (that is, reasoning) is something that can be selected for. And this seems to directly contradict the argument against naturalism. It just seems to be a valid assumption that our ancestors would be amoung those who could better reason how to survive. So we inherited an enhanced ability to reason (i.e. discern what is true).

    Part of me says there must be a flaw in there somewhere, but I am unable to see what it is.

    Your thoughts?

    (reply)
    • Scott Youngren  December 9, 2012

      Gerry:

      Thanks for your question.

      Glancing at your proposed argument, here is a flaw that I see:

      You write, “Since we, more often than not, have the ability to pick the ‘correct’ answers, why shouldn’t we assume that our ancestors had the ability to pick the correct answers when confronted with survival situations?”

      Neither I nor Plantinga is suggesting that our ancestors did not have the ability to pick the correct answers. The problem with the naturalist worldview (in which atheism is rooted) is that it does not explain WHY our ancestors had this ability. There is no survival value in truth. Rather, there is only survival value in neuro-physiological (NP) responses…such as running and hiding from a predator.

      As Plantinga points out, our ancestors would have to select their beliefs associated with NP responses from a “pot luck.” For example, one could believe that eating a poisonous plant is a bad idea because it will put poison in one’s body, or, conversely, one could believe that eating a poisonous plant is a bad idea because it will turn one into a werewolf. Both beliefs provide the same survival value, because they both produce the same NP response…namely, not eating the poisonous plant. So natural selection cannot be cited as being responsible for our ability to discern truth from falsehood.

      And I will take Plantinga’s argument a step further: The naturalist worldview does not even explain why there should be any beliefs whatsoever associated with NP responses (either true OR false). Survival only requires NP responses, not beliefs associated with those responses. Put another way, if the fundamental composition of reality (a.k.a “ultimate reality”) is one of mindless matter (as naturalism/materialism suggests), why would an organism not just behave like a mindless robot with no beliefs (or thoughts of any kind) whatsoever?

      The materialist/naturalist worldview cannot coherently explain the origin of consciousness from non-conscious matter. Please read my essay titled The Ultimate Cart Before the Horse (Why Atheism is Illogical) to explore this topic further.

      Scott

      (reply)
  14. G  December 12, 2012

    Response to: “Evolutionary naturalism implies that we should not take any of our convictions seriously, including the scientific world picture on which evolutionary naturalism itself depends… For example, the belief that eating a particular plant should be avoided because doing so would cause one to turn into a werewolf provides just as much survival value as the belief that eating that plant should be avoided because doing so puts poison into one’s body.”

    No, the idea that seeking truth through reason has the same amount of survival as belief in the supernatural is false. If one is able to use reason and figures out that certain plant (plant 1) has poison, one can figure out a way to test new plants (plant 2 etc.: those one has not eaten before) for poison. This is an obvious advantage of reason. One can apply it to many (especially new) things. However, if the same person were to only believe that plant 1 is bad because it can make someone a werewolf, why would someone test plants 2 etc. for poison? The person would not even know about the poison to test. Not testing plants for poison is obviously disadvantageous to survival, especially if one were to migrate. Reason is useful because it leads to predictive validity.

    If reason is such a poor way to understand the world, then why is the world dominated by human life?

    (reply)
    • G  December 12, 2012

      Correction: the same amount survival benefit or survivability

      (reply)
    • Scott Youngren  December 12, 2012

      You clearly have not read the essay thoroughly. The point of the essay is not that “reason is…a poor way to understand the world,” as you put it. If you think that was the point of the essay, then you must have only given it a cursory skimming.

      The point of the essay is that, assuming the naturalist/materialist worldview is true, we have no reason for trusting the accuracy of our beliefs…and therefore no reason to think that we can reason accurately. Further, without any reason for trusting the accuracy of our beliefs, we cannot judge any of our beliefs to be true…such as a belief in naturalism/materialism.

      (reply)
  15. Zia  December 21, 2012

    What people don’t understand is that the EAAN is not a critique of evolution. It’s a critique of evolution in conjuction with metaphysical naturalism. In the wild, actions are what ultimately make the difference, not beliefs. Scott, have you read Plantinga’s recent paper on the issue or are you just going by what was in his book? Regardless, here’s a link for interested readers.

    http://www.andrewmbailey.com/ap/Content_Natural_Selection.pdf

    (reply)
    • Scott Youngren  December 21, 2012

      Zia:

      I was just going by what was in his book. Thanks very much for this…it looks very interesting and could be useful.

      Scott

      (reply)

Add a Comment

*